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Transcript: Can We Have Our Ball Back?
A middle-aged man with short black hair wears a grey and white checkered dress shirt. Sunlight reflects off a table in front of him.
[Gentle music plays]
The black-haired man says,
THE ONLY WAY TO BEAT THE
SYSTEM IS TO GET OUT AND
NEVER COME BACK.
A middle-aged woman wears a black blouse. Her dark brown hair is pulled away from her face in a ponytail.
The woman with the ponytail says,
YOU CAN'T REALLY PROCESS A
TRAUMA OR DO ANY SORT OF DEEPER
WORK UNTIL YOU'RE BASIC NEEDS
ARE MET.
A man in his sixties with buzzed grey hair wears black-framed glasses and a pale blue dress shirt.
The man with the buzz cut says,
WE DON'T DEAL WITH THE
UNDERLYING ISSUES THEN WE'RE
DELAYING THE PROBLEM.
A woman wears a black turtleneck. Her wavy white hair touches her shoulders. Behind her is a white building surrounded by lush greenery.
[Bird caws]
The white-haired woman says,
WE ARE NOT ABOUT PUNISHMENT.
WE ARE ABOUT TRYING TO RESTORE
A PERSON.
Animated purple, red, dark yellow and blue thread connects to dots. The thread turns into grey lines connecting yellow, blue, purple and red dots. Text reads, “The Thread with Nam Kiwannuka.” The word “the” is dark grey and underlined in blue. The word “thread” is blue. “With Nam Kiwanuka” is in light grey text. All words except the first letter in Nam Kiwanuka’s first and last name are in lowercase letters.
[Upbeat music plays]
People stand on a street corner by a traffic light.
[Background crowd chatter]
Nam says, ONTARIO IS RELATIVELY
SAFE BUT RECENT HEADLINES LED
TO CONCERNS BROUGHT ON BY
OFFENDERS OUT ON BAIL.
[Gentle music plays]
Headlines from online news sources read, “Violent Crime on Bail Up in Ontario, Stakeholders Agree System is Broken, But Not on How to Fix It,” “Ontario Looks to Strengthen Bail System Following Several Incidents of Violent Crime,” “Ontario Looks to Strengthen Bail System Following Several Incidents of Violent Crime,” “MANDEL: Random Acts of Violence Have Us on Edge,” “As Violence Increases on the TTC, Unease Grows Along with Calls for More Support,” “WARMINTON: How Many Innocent Victims Must Die in TTC Violence Before Alarm Bells Raised?,” “’Not Safe in My Own City’: Video Shows Attack by Stranger in Toronto as Judge Predicts He Will Reoffend.”
Nam says, BAIL REFORM AND PUBLIC
SAFETY WEAVE THROUGH THE
CONVERSATION FOR THIS MONTH'S
EPISODE OF THE THREAD.
Nam wears her long brown hair pulled back away from her face. She wears a navy blue blazers over a white and navy blue vertically-striped blouse. She wears black-framed eyeglasses. Text beneath Nam reads, “Nam Kiwanuka. @TVOTheThread”
[Serious music plays]
Nam says, WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT
THIS MONTH'S TOPIC AND WHAT POLLY
HAS SEEN WHEN IT COMES TO BAIL
REFORM AND WHETHER OR NOT
THERE IS AN INCREASE IN CRIME.
IT SEEMS AS IF EVERY WHERE YOU
TURN IF YOU'RE ON THE TRANSIT
OR IF YOU'RE JUST OUT AND ABOUT,
SOMETHING SEEMS TO BE OCCURRING
TO MAKE PEOPLE FEEL UNSAFE.
WHEN WE TALK ABOUT BAIL
REFORM LABOUR AND WHETHER OR
NOT CRIME IS ON THE RISE WHEN
DOES POLLY SEE?
A woman with long wavy blonde hair sits across from Nam. The woman wears a black short-sleeved shirt. Text beneath her reads, “Erin Kelly. CEO, Advanced Symbolics, Inc.”
Erin says, PEOPLE ARE AFRAID BECAUSE
CRIMES ARE BEING COMMITED
THAT THEY DIDN’T SEE BEFORE.
WHAT'S CAUSING ANGER IS PEOPLE
COMMITTING THE CRIMES HAVE
PREVIOUS CRIMINAL RECORDS AND
THEY ARE OUT ON BAIL OR ON
PAROLE AND REOFFENDING.
At a different location, the black-haired man says,
WHEN YOU HAVE THE INSIGHT AND
UNDERSTANDING GENERALLY YOU
WON'T REPEAT THAT BEHAVIOUR.
Text beneath the black-haired man reads, “Lee Chapelle. Canaidan Prison Consulting Inc.”
[Upbeat music plays]
Lee says, MY NAME IS LEE CHAPELLE AND
I AM THE PRESIDENT OF CANADIAN
PRISON CONSULTING INCORPORATED.
MY FIRST TEN YEARS OF PRISON
I WAS ONE OF THE – ‘I'M NOT
GOING TO CHANGE’ GUYS.
I DIDN'T SEE ANOTHER PLACE IN
THE WORLD FOR ME AT THAT POINT.
I DIDN'T SEE MUCH IN THE WAY OF
OPPORTUNITIES DOWN THE ROAD
FOR A GUY WHO’D BEEN IN ON OUT
OF PRISON, CAME FROM CHILD
WELFARE, HAD A DRUG HABIT.
IN MY TWENTIES –COCAINE--AND
I REALLY DIDN’T SEE A WAY,
A PATH FORWARD AND I DIDN'T
HAVE THE SELF VALUE OR
SELF-BELIEF. I WAS ALREADY AT A
POINT WHERE I HAD STARTED TO
FEEL LIKE I WAS LOSING MY
SANITY BECAUSE I HAD ALREADY
SERVED PROBABLY FOURTEEN,
FIFTEEN YEARS AT THAT POINT.
I HAD BEEN OUT FOR A WHILE.
I HAD CAME BACK INTO THE SYSTEM,
AND IT WASN'T LIKE AN OLD SLIPPER
LIKE THE WAY IT USED TO BE WHERE
YOU COULD SLIP IN AND ADJUST.
I HAD A REALLY HARD TIME AND
I LOOKED AT MYSELF AND SAID OKAY
IS THERE WHERE I'M GOING TO BE
FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE?
Nam says, IT'S WILD AT THIRTY
YOU'D BEEN INSIDE FOR THIRTEEN,
FOURTEEN YEARS.
Lee says, YEAH, I HAD HIT A POINT
WHERE WHAT I HAVE COINED ‘DIRTY
KNOWLEDGE’ OR ‘GUILTY KNOWLEDGE’
HAD STARTED TAKING A TOLL ON MY
MENTAL WELL BEING.
I WAS FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO BEGIN
MEETING WITH PSYCHOLOGIST ON
SITE.
THROUGH THAT SIX MONTHS OF MEETING
WITH HER, I HAD COMMITTED TO
STOPPING MARIJUANA AND BEING ALL
INVOLVED IN THE SUBCULTURE.
I COMMITTED TO TAKING
UNIVERSITY. I BEGAN TAKING
A COURSE FROM
MCMASTER CORRESPONDENCE.
AT THE END OF THE THAT SIX MONTH
PERIOD, WHICH I SIGNED UP FOR AS
A TRIAL I FELT MORE EMPOWERED
AND BETTER THAN I HAD IN MY
ENTIRE LIFE.
PREDOMINANTLY, I WORK WITH PEOPLE
FACING INCARCERATION FOR THE
FIRST TIME. FIRST TIME OFFENDERS.
I WORK WITH THE PERSON WHO IS
FACING INCARCERATION AND THEIR
FAMILIES TOWARDS PREPARING THEM
FOR WHAT LIES AHEAD.
BEYOND THAT I REALLY TAKE A
TOUGH APPROACH.
THAT IS CENTERED UPON OWNERSHIP.
ACCOUNTABILITY, INSIGHT AND REMORSE.
Nam says, I GET THE SENSE THAT THE
PEOPLE THAT YOU WORK WITH WHEN
THEY COME TO YOU AND THEY'RE
TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO
NAVIGATE THE PRISON SYSTEM…
Lee says, YUP.
Nam says, …THAT YOU WANT TO WORK
WITH PEOPLE WHO TAKE -- WHO
ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT IT IS THAT
THEY'VE DONE.
Lee says, I'M NOT A PAROLE BOARD.
I'M NOT A JUDGE.
I DON'T DO THE POWER TO GIVE A
LESSER SENTENCE BUT WHEN IT'S
THAT GENUINE, THERE'S SOMEONE
I CAN WORK WITH SO THEY DON'T
END UP BACK TO WHERE THEY
ARE RIGHT NOW.
WE THINK OF CORRECTIONS AS AN
ENTITY BUT IT'S REALLY BROKEN
INTO MANY DIFFERENT FRAGMENTS.
WE HAVE DECISION-MAKING IN THE
FEDERAL SYSTEM, YOU'VE GOT
NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS, YOU'VE
GOT REGIONAL HEADQUARTERS
IN EVERY REGION ACROSS CANADA.
YOU HAVE ADMINISTRATIONS OF
EVERY PRISON. WARDENS.
DEPUTY WARDEN AND GOING INTO
MANAGEMENT AND THEN YOU GET TO
FRONT LINE, AND MOST OF THESE
GROUPS, THERE IS NOT A GREAT
DEAL OF COHESION WITH.
AND THERE'S DIFFERENCES OF
OPINIONS SO YOU'VE GOT A
DECISION MAKER WHO’S ADAMENT
THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE, AND THEN
YOU'VE GOT SOMEBODY ON THE FRONT
LINE WHO GETS THE MEMO LOOKS AT
IT AND SAYS, ‘THEY'RE IN THEIR
GLASS TOWER. THEY HAVE NO IDEA
WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE HERE’ AND
THROWS IT IN THE GARBAGE.
IT IS WHERE YOU HAVE A BREAKDOWN
WITHIN THAT YOU DON'T OFTEN SEE
OR THE PUBLIC NOT AWARE OF.
Nam says, IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE
IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE CONCEPT
OF WHY PEOPLE ARE SENT TO PRISON,
IS WE WANT TO GIVE THEM AN
OPPORTUNITY TO REHABILITATE.
IDEALLY RIGHT, BUT IF THE PEOPLE
WHO ARE KIND OF IN CHARGE OF
THAT PROCESS WITHIN THE PRISONS
THEMSELVES, THE CORRECTIONAL
OFFICERS. IF THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN
REHABILITATION AND IF YOU'RE
INSIDE TRYING TO REHABILITATE,
IT SEEMS AS IF THOSE TWO THINGS
ARE CLASHING.
Lee says, YES, I WOULD AGREE.
NOW HAVING SAID THAT WHEN IT
COMES TO CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS,
TO DISTINGUISH THIS, THERE IS A
CARE CUSTODY CONTROL IS WHAT
IT'S CALLED FOR CORRECTIONS.
THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE
CARE CUSTODY AND CONTROL OF
CHARGES, THEIR INMATES,
SECURITY IS REALLY NOT PART
OF SOCIAL WORK. PART OF
PROGRAMMING. THEY ARE THERE
FOR SECURITY REASONS.
NOW THIS BECOMES A NUANCE,
REALLY CHALLENGED, BECAUSE YOU'VE
GOT THE DEMOGRAPHIC OF INMATES
THAT ARE SUBCULTURE. DEEPLY
ENTRENCHED IN SUBCULTURE.
I WAS ONE.
Nam asks, WHAT DO YOU MEAN
BY SUBCULTURE?
Lee says, SO DRUG TRADE.
GAMBLING. STILL ACTIVE SO THAT
ULTIMATELY IF THERE'S WAY
SOMEHOW THROUGH WHOEVER YOU'RE
IN WITH, AND YOU'RE HANGING OUT
WITH, TO MAKE ARRANGEMENTS
FOR SOMETHING TO STILL OCCUR
THAT'S CRIMINAL ON THE STREET.
THERE'S ACTIVE PEOPLE THAT ARE
NOT PREPARED AND VERY CLEAR --
THEY SAY ‘I DON'T WANT TO CHANGE.
I'M GOING OUT AND I'M STILL
GOING TO DO’ -- OR THEY MAY NOT
BE THAT OPEN BUT THAT’S WHERE
THEY’RE AT.
A sign by a leafy tree reads, “Ontario. Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services.”
[Hum of background traffic]
Nam narrates, WHETHER YOU'RE ON
THE INSIDE OR OUTSIDE, A CYCLE OF
CHANGE MAY BE NEEDED.
WHAT PATHS WOULD LEAD TO
POSITIVE TRANSFORMATION?
Text beneath the woman with the ponytail reads, “Carly Kalish. Executive Director of Victim Services.”
Carly says, OUR GOAL IS TO TRY TO MOVE
PEOPLE FROM VICTIM TO SURVIVOR.
[Upbeat music plays]
Carly says, I'M CARLY KALISH, THE
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF
VICTIM SERVICES TORONTO.
WE PHYSICALLY GO TO THE SCENE OF
THE CRIME WITH POLICE ALTHOUGH
WE ARE SEPARATE FROM
TORONTO POLICE.
WE SUPPORT THEM IN THE VICTIM
AND SURVIVOR CRISIS MANAGEMENT,
SO SURVIVORS OF ALL DIFFERENT
CRIME TYPES AND SUDDEN TRAGEDIES,
ONCE THEY ARE A VICTIM OR
SURVIVOR THEY HAVE TO ENGAGE
WITH ALL OF THESE BUREAUCRACIES
THAT CAN BE DIFFICULT. SO OUR JOB
IS TO WALK ALONGSIDE SURVIVORS
AND MAKE SURE WE HOLD THEIR HAND
AND MAKE SURE THEY ARE SUPPORTED
AND HAVE ALL OF THE SERVICES
THEY NEED AFTER THE WORST DAY
OF THEIR LIFE.
Nam says, CRIME IS RISING AND PEOPLE
DON'T FEEL SAFE.
FROM THE WORK THAT YOU DO, WHAT
TYPES OF CRIME ARE YOU NAVIGATING?
Carly says, THE SCARIEST THING THAT
WE ARE JUST SEEING A CRAZY INFLUX
OF, BESIDES LABOUR TRAFFICKING,
IS GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE AND
THIS PEAK STARTED DURING THE
PANDEMIC, RIGHT. WHEN YOU ARE
LITERALLY LOCKED N A HOUSE OR
AN APARTMENT OR A HOME WITH
YOUR ABUSER, AND SO THE MAJORITY
OF THE WORK THAT WE DO SO AROUND
SEVENTY PERCENT OF THE CLIENTS,
WE SUPPORT AROUND TWENTY
THOUSAND CLIENTS A YEAR.
SEVENTY PERCENT ARE SURVIVORS
OF GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE.
SO INTIMATE PARTNER VIOLENCE
BEING THE BIGGEST, SEXUAL ASSAULT,
HUMAN TRAFFICKING.
Nam says, AND THE WORK YOU DO
WITH VICTIMS, DO YOU GET A SENSE
VICTIMS FEEL AS IF THEY ARE
GETTING JUSTICE?
Carly replies, BECAUSE IT'S SO INDIVIDUAL.
SOME YES AND SOME NO. RIGHT.
LIKE OFTEN INTIMATE PARTNER
VIOLENCE SURVIVORS, IF THEY DO
DECIDE TO REPORT TO POLICE AND
SOME DO AND SOME DON'T, THEIR
ABUSER COMES OUT THE SAME DAY.
THEY GET BAIL AND THEY'RE OUT
THE SAME DAY AND SO IT'S JUST
REALLY TERRIFYING.
THAT'S A VERY SCARY FEELING TO KNOW
THAT THIS PERSON IS VERY CAPABLE
OF HARMING YOU OR KILLING YOU.
Nam says, AND THERE'S A LOT OF
CONVERSATION NOT JUST IN ONTARIO
BUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY REGARDING
BAIL REFORM, AND I CAN ONLY
IMAGINE IF YOU ARE A PERSON THAT
SURVIVED A CRIME AND THEN THE
PERSON WHO COMMITTED THAT CRIME
IS OUT ON BAIL.
Carly says, YEAH.
Nam says, AND WE'VE HEARD STORIES
OF PEOPLE BEING OUT ON BAIL,
RECOMMITTING CRIMES AGAINST
OTHER PEOPLE. WHAT ARE YOUR
THOUGHTS AROUND THAT?
Carly replies, WE WOULD HAVE
SURVIVORS WHO FEEL BOTH WAYS.
I WILL TELL YOU THAT MOST OF THE
SURVIVORS WE SUPPORT WOULD SAY
THAT THEY FEEL, THEY FEEL LIKE
THE CURRENT SYSTEM DOES NOT GO
FAR ENOUGH AND THEY ARE
SUPPORTIVE OF BAIL REFORM BUT
NOT ALL.
Nam asks, HOW DOUGH WE BEGIN TO DISSECT
WHAT IS HAPPENING AROUND PUBLIC
SAFETY, AND THE PERCEPTION OF
PUBLIC SAFETY IN THIS COUNTRY?
Carly replies, I MEAN I THINK THE FIRST
THING WE CAN DO IS HOUSE PEOPLE.
LIKE THAT'S HIERARCHY OF NEEDS.
YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ELSE UNTIL
YOUR BASIC NEEDS ARE MET.
SO MANY PEOPLE ARE COMMITTING
CRIMES BECAUSE THE BASIC NEEDS
ARE NOT BEING MET AND THEY ARE
TRYING TO SURVIVE.
AND I THINK STEP ONE IN SOLVING
ANY OF THIS IS HOUSING PEOPLE.
Nam asks, DO YOU THINK THE JUSTICE
SYSTEM COULD DO A BETTER JOB OF
PROTECTING VICTIMS?
Carly replies, THERE'S DEFINITELY WORK
TO BE DONE IN ORDER TO REALLY LISTEN
TO VICTIMS AND TO REALLY UNDERSTAND
THE SEVERITY OF THEIR FEAR.
SO MANY OF OUR SURVIVORS REPORT
TO US BUT DON'T REPORT TO POLICE
SO THEY ARE NOT ACTUALLY
ENTERING THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE
SYSTEM AND I THINK THAT'S ALSO
DISSECT.
Nam asks, CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?
Carly says, SOME OF THEM ESPECIALLY
RACIALIZED, INDIGENOUS, BLACK
CLIENTS FEEL UNSAFE ACCESSING
THE SUPPORT OF THE CRIMINAL
JUSTICE SYSTEM, AND YOU KNOW
THROUGH OUR PARTNERSHIP
WITH TPS.
Nam says, TORONTO POLICE.
Carly syas, THE TORONTO POLICE
SERVICE. WE HAVE TWO CRISIS LINES.
ONE IS SPECIFIC TO THE POLICE.
THEY CAN CALL US TO GO TO THE
SCENE OF THE CRIME, AND WE HAVE
A CRISIS LINE AVAILABLE TO THE
COMMUNITY MUCH TO THE PUBLIC
TO CALL US SHOULD THEY NOT WANT
POLICE INTERVENTION BUT FEEL
LIKE THEY'RE A SURVIVOR OR
VICTIM OF CRIME AND CRISIS.
Nam asks, WHAT DO YOU WANT THE PUBLIC
TO KNOW ABOUT VICTIMS AND HOW WE
SHOULD, I DON'T KNOW, I THINK WE
SHOULD CONSIDER WHEN SOMEONE
HAS BEEN VICTIMIZED.
Carly says, IT'S SO COMPLICATED AND
NUANCED BECAUSE OFTEN SURVIVORS
AND VICTIMS ARE ALSO PERPETRATORS.
LIKE IT CAN BECOME MURKY THAT
IT'S NOT JUST YOU KNOW TWO
CATEGORIES OF PEOPLE.
IT’S HARD FOR US TO ADVOCATE FOR ONE
SPECIFIC DIRECTION TO CHANGE THE
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM FOR
EXAMPLE BECAUSE THAT'S NOT HOW
ALL THE SURVIVORS FEEL.
Nam walks to the Court House in Toronto and looks at the building. Writing carved into the side of the building reads, “Court House. Three sixty-one University.”
[Solemn music plays]
Nam narrates, THE EXPERIENCE OF VICTIMS
SURVIVORS AND OFFENDERS IS COMPLEX.
NUANCED AND UNIQUE TO EACH SITUATION.
THOUGH A CONSTANT AMONG THEM IS
A HOPE THAT THE SYSTEM WORKS
FOR THEM.
Nam sits across from Erin.
Nam asks, WHAT DOES POLLY SEE WHEN IT
COMES TO THE CONVERSATION AROUND
BAIL REFORM?
Erin replies, TWO PROBLEMS.
FIRST, ARE WE LETTING PEOPLE OUT
WHEN THEY ARE HEALTHY ENOUGH
TO BE LET OUT. AND ARE WE PUTTING
THEM IN A SITUATION ONCE THEY ARE
OUT WHERE THEY CAN BE SUCCESSFUL?
IS IT THAT WE ARE NOT DOING A
GOOD JOB OF HELPING PEOPLE AND
REFORMING THEM?
OR ARE WE NOT DOING A GOOD
JOB OF HEY GREAT YOU'RE PRETTY
STABLE NOW WE WILL PUT YOU IN A
WORLD YOU HAVEN'T BEEN IN FOR
MANY YEARS AND YOU HAVE TO GET
A JOB AND FEED YOURSELF.
WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHERE
THE SYSTEM IS FALLING DOWN.
Elsewhere, the man with the buzz cut says,
IF WE DON'T DEAL WITH THE
UNDERLYING ISSUES THEN WE ARE
DELAYING THE PROBLEM.
Jeyan Jeganathan walks down a shadowy staircase.
Nam narrates, JEYAN MET UP WITH
PROFESSOR KENT ROACH TO GET
A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF
THE BAIL AND COURT SYSTEM.
Text by the man with the buzz cut reads, “Kent Roach. Law Professor, University of Toronto.”
[Upbeat music plays]
Professor Roach says, I'M KENT ROACH,
A PROFESSOR OF CRIMINAL LAW AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.
Jeyan wears a black and brown checkered shirt. His black hair, beard and moustache are trimmed short. Text beneath Jeyan reads, “Jeyan Jeganathan.” Text beside the Instagram icon reads, “Jeyanjeganathan”
Jeyan says, TAKE US A STEP BACK.
WHAT EXACTLY IS BAIL?
FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS NOT GONE
THROUGHOUT COURT SYSTEM WHAT
DOES THAT ACTUALLY MEAN?
Professor Roach says, OKAY, SO THE
CRIMINAL CODE IS SET UP THAT
WHEN A POLICE OFFICER ARRESTS
SOMEONE OR GIVES SOMEONE A
SUMMONS, THERE'S DEFAULT THAT
THEY SHOULD BE RELEASED.
SO THAT THEY NEVER EVEN GET
TO THE ISSUE OF BAIL.
BUT IF THE POLICE OFFICER THINKS
THAT THE PERSON IS NOT GOING TO
SHOW UP OR IF THEY'RE REQUESTING
TO GO ON AND COMMIT ANOTHER
CRIME THEY CAN DETAIN THAT PERSON.
AND WITHIN TWENTY-FOUR HOURS,
THEY HAVE A RIGHT, UNDER THE CHARTER
TO GO IN FRONT OF A JUDGE OR A JUSTICE
OF THE PEACE TO DETERMINE WHETHER
THEY WILL BE GRANTED BAIL.
THE JUSTICE OF THE PEACE HAS
TO DECIDE ‘CAN I ENSURE THAT THIS
PERSON WILL COME BACK TO COURT,
WILL NOT COMMIT OTHER OFFENCES’,
AND ‘CAN I MAINTAIN CONFIDENCE IN
THE ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BY
EITHER RELEASING THIS PERSON,
USUALLY ON CONDITIONS, OR HAVING
THEM SERVE -- DENYING THEM BAIL’.
IF THEY'RE DENIED BAIL, THEY GO
TO JAIL.
Jeyan asks, WHAT WOULD A CRIME
THAT MAYBE PERHAPS SOMEONE
WOULD BE CONSIDERED, YOU KNOW,
A CANDIDATE FOR BAIL?
WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE?
Professor Roach says, PRETTY STANDARD
BAIL CONDITION WOULD BE IN THE ONLY
THAT YOU HAVE TO KEEP THE PEACE,
AND BE OF GOOD BEHAVIOUR, BUT
THAT YOU NOT CONTACT THE VICTIM,
AND PERHAPS THAT YOU NOT CONTACT
THE WITNESS.
SO THOSE ARE SOME OF THE BAIL
CONDITIONS THAT CAN BE PLACED
ON TO TRY TO PROTECT PUBLIC SAFETY.
THERE'S ALSO THE IDEA THAT YOU
SHOULD HAVE PROBATION OFFICERS
WHO CAN ENFORCE BAIL SO IT MAY
BE A CONDITION OF BAIL THAT YOU
NEED WITH THIS PERSON EVERY
WEEK, AND THAT PERSON COULD
THEN, YOU KNOW IF HE OR SHE
SUSPECTS THAT YOU BREACHED BAIL,
COULD THEN SEND THAT BACK TO
THE POLICE.
Jeyan says, THE LAST FEW MONTHS,
YOU KNOW, WE'VE SEEN IT ON EVERY
HEADLINE. IT JUST FEELS LIKE
EVERYONE HAS BEEN ON EDGE.
AND I'M HOPING, CAN YOU DESCRIBE,
WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A
RELATIONSHIP BUT PEOPLE ARE
MAKING SOME CONNECTION BETWEEN
THE BAIL PROCESS AND THE JUSTICE
SYSTEM AND MAYBE WHAT CAN BE
DONE, VERSUS WHAT WE ARE SEEING
PLAY OUT IN SOCIETY.
Professor Roach says, WHAT
WE'RE SEEING COMING OUT
OF COVID IS I MEAN -- THINK
ABOUT TORONTO.
THINK ABOUT HOW UNAFFORDABLE
HOUSING IS IN TORONTO.
SO WE ARE SEEING BOTH MANY MORE
VISIBLE PEOPLE LIVING IN TTC,
OTHER PUBLIC SPACES AND WE'RE
ALSO SEEING THESE WELL-PUBLICIZED
HORRIFIC ACTS OF VIOLENCE.
I THINK IT'S JUST KIND OF A
COMBINATION OF UNEASE FRANKLY
THAT WE ALL HAVE IN SEEING
PEOPLE WITH DRUG ADDICTIONS,
PEOPLE WHO ARE UNHOUSED, PEOPLE
WHO ARE IN VARIOUS FORMS OF
DISTRESS. AND I THINK THAT
IN SOME WAYS IT'S EASIER TO LOOK
TO SOLUTIONS IN THE CRIMINAL
JUSTICE SYSTEM BECAUSE YOU CAN
PASS A LAW AND SAY GOOD, WE'VE
DEALT WITH IT.
AND THE OTHER SORT OF SOLUTIONS
ARE HARDER.
IT'S HARDER TO WORK ON HOUSING.
IT'S HARDER TO WORK ON MENTAL
HEALTH, AND YOU KNOW SO AGAIN,
I'M NOT SAYING THAT BAIL IS NOT
PART OF THE REFORM, THE WHOLE
JUSTICE SYSTEM AND THE WHOLE
COMMUNITY SAFETY SYSTEM
OPERATING IN SILOS BUT I DON'T
THINK IT'S NECESSARILY IN THE
BEST INTERESTS THAT THE
POLICING BUDGET IS IN ONE SILO.
THE HOUSING BUDGET IS IN
ANOTHER, THE MENTAL HEALTH
IS IN ANOTHER SILO.
Jeyan asks, OVERALL, THE BAIL
PROCESS, IS IT ONE THAT YOU THINK
IS FAIR?
Professor Roach says, AS A PERSON
TRAINED IN THE PRESUMPTION OF
INNOCENCE, THE IDEA OF PUTTING
PEOPLE IN JAIL BEFORE THEY HAVE
BEEN FOUND GUILTY IS HARD TO JUSTIFY.
THERE ARE NO SIMPLE SOLUTIONS.
WE ALL WANT TO BE SAFE.
WE ALL WANT PEOPLE I THINK TO
GET THE HELP THAT THEY NEED TO
DEAL WITH ADDICTIONS AND OTHER
CAUSES OF CRIME.
SOMETIMES DENIAL OF BAIL IS
GOING TO BE NECESSARY, BUT
SOMETIMES IT CAN HAVE A NEGATIVE
EFFECT, BOTH ON THE SENTENCE, BUT
ALSO EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY AND
THE PERSON'S LIFE.
Elsewhere, Nam stands in front of the Toronto sculpture, ‘Equal Before the Law.’ The sculpture features a bronze lion and a bronze lamb staring at each other across a platform. Nam looks at the quote on the side of the base of the sculpture. The quote from the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms reads, “Every individual is equal before and under the law.”
[Gentle music plays]
Nam narrates, WHAT IS THE BALANCE
BETWEEN WHAT IS FAIR AND WHAT
WILL KEEP THE PUBLIC SAFE?
IS THE SYSTEM NEED ARE REPAIR?
DOES INCARCERATION LEAD
TO REHABILITATION?
Nam sits across from Erin.
[Music continues]
Nam asks, WHAT DOES POLLY SAY
WHEN IT COMES TO THE CONVERSATION
AROUND REHABILITATION.
Erin says, AMONG THE GENERAL
POPULATION PEOPLE ARE VERY
SUPPORTIVE OF REHABILITATION.
NOW THE GENERAL POPULATION DOES
BELIEVE THOUGH THAT THERE'S SOME
PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE WORTHY OR
MORE LIKELY TO BE REHABILITATED
THAN OTHERS, SO THERE'S A LOT OF
BELIEF AND SYMPATHY THAT IF
YOU CAME FROM A
DISADVANTAGED BACKGROUND,
VERY POOR BACKGROUND OR BIPOC
AND YOU JUST HAD A ROUGH START
IN LIFE OR THE CAUSE THAT YOU
WERE ON DRUGS BUT NOW ARE
CLEAN YOU ARE PROBABLY A GOOD
CANDIDATE FOR REHABILITATION
THERE'S BELIEF THAT IF YOU STALK
AND KILL CHILDREN YOU ARE NOT
EITHER A CANDIDATE FOR
REHABILITATION OR EVEN WORTHY.
PEOPLE SAY IF THE SYSTEM IS
ABOUT REASONABLE TASTING WHY
DO WE SENTENCE PEOPLE TO YEARS?
WHY DO WE SAY TWENTY-FIVE
YEARS YOU'RE OUT OR TEN YEARS
YOU'RE OUT?
SHOULDN'T IT BE WHEN YOU'RE
REFORMED YOU CAN OUT?
AND IT'S UP TO YOU TO PROVE.
IT'S NOT ABOUT REFORM MUCH
IT'S STILL ABOUT TIME.
Nam says, BASICALLY THAT IF YOU
DID THE CRIME, YOU NEED TO DO
THE TIME.
Erin says, YES.
I ACTUALLY SAW A BIG
CONVERSATION AND THE TOPIC EVER
REHABILITATION SAYING PEOPLE
SUPPORT – ‘I SUPPORT
REHABILITATION FOR ONE MAIN
REASON BECAUSE IF WE LEARN HOW
TO REHABILITATE MAYBE WE CAN
LEARN HOW TO PREVENT.’
Later, Nam sits in the passenger side of a car.
[Motor hums]
A woman with long straight blonde hair walks beside Nam on a paved path. The woman wears blue jeans and a grey sweater over a white shirt.
Nam narrates, WHAT IS THE DIRECTION
TOWARDS A BETTER SYSTEM?
WE HEAD TO THUNDER BAY, JOINED
BY CHARNEL ANDERSON AND MEET
COMMUNITY MEMBERS OF THE
FORT WILLIAM FIRST NATION
TO LEARN MORE.
[Serious music plays]
An elderly woman wears a bucket hat with a beige jacket and black sweater. She wears dark-framed eyeglasses.
The elderly woman says, OUR WHOLE
PURPOSE EVER THE RESTORATION
PROGRAMME IS TO KEEP PEOPLE
OUT OF JAIL.
A woman with black curly hair sits across from Nam. She wears a black jacket over a blue shirt.
The curly-haired woman says,
YOU NEED IT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY
FOR YOUR ACTIONS OF WHAT
YOU'VE -- WHAT YOU'VE DONE.
A woman with long curly red hair sits beside Charnel. The red-haired woman wears a white blazer over a dark pink blouse.
[Birds chirp]
The red-haired woman says, RESTORATIVE
JUSTICE, CERTAINLY THAT IS ONE, ONE
WAY TO MINIMIZE OR TO ALLEVIATE
SOME OF THE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE
WHO ARE FINDING THEMSELVES IN
INCARCERATED SITUATIONS.
The white-haired woman says,
THE SOONER WE REALIZE THAT
IT SHOULD BE THE MAIN WAY TO
ASSIST INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN
THE JUSTICE SYSTEM, THE BETTER
OFF WE'LL ALL BE.
Text beneath the white-haired woman reads, “Celina Reitberger. Former Nishnawbe Aski Legal Services executive director and Former Chair of Thunder Bay Police Services Board.
[Upbeat music plays]
[Celina speaks in an indigenous language]
Celina says, I'M FROM FORT
WILLIAM FIRST NATION.
MY SPIRIT NAME IS ‘WHIRLWIND
WOMAN’ AND I'M EAGLE CLAN
AND MY COMMON NAME IS
CELINA REITBERGER.
Nam asks, HOW DOES RESTORATIVE
JUSTICE SEEK TO ADDRESS CRIME?
Celina says, WHEN WE STARTED UP
OUR PROGRAMME WE CALLED IT
RESTORATIVE JUSTICE BECAUSE IT
IS RESTORING THE WAY THINGS USED
TO BE IN THE INDIGENOUS CULTURE,
AND IT ALSO RESTORES RELATIONSHIPS.
SO IT ADDRESSES CRIME IN A VERY
UNIQUE MANNER IN THAT WE ARE
TRYING TO ADDRESS HEALING, SO
IT'S ABOUT TRYING TO RESTORE
RELATIONSHIPS, AND ALSO HEAL THE
PERSON WHO HAD HAS COMMITTED
THE WRONG BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT
THERE ARE UNDERLYING REASONS WHY
THIS HAPPENED.
IT'S NOT JUST WILLFULNESS.
Nam asks, WHY IS HEALING I GUESS
AT THE CENTRE OF RESTORATIVE JUSTICE.
Celina says, BECAUSE WE KNOW IF YOU
DEAL WITH THE UNDERLYING ISSUES
AND YOU BECOME A WELL PERSON,
WE ARE NOT GOING TO SEE YOU IN
THE JUSTICE SYSTEM ANY MORE.
Nam asks, WHY RESTORATIVE JUSTICE.
WHY NOT JAIL OR PRISON?
[Bird caws]
Celina says, FIRST OF ALL, YOU
DON'T WANT TO BE AN INDIGENOUS
PERSON IN JAIL. NOT A GOOD PLACE.
WE ARE NOT ABOUT PUNISHMENT.
WE ARE ABOUT TRYING TO RESTORE
A PERSON. SO IF YOU PUT SOMEONE
IN JAIL, WHAT DID THEY DO IN THERE?
THEY LEARN HOW TO BE A BETTER
CRIMINAL BUT WHEN AT THE GET OUT
THEY DON'T HAVE THE TOOLS TO
LEAD A GOOD LIFE.
The elderly woman says, I HAVE
FAMILY AND FRIENDS THAT HAVE
DIED IN JAILS AND WHO HAVE GONE
BACK AND FORTH. YOU KNOW, THE
RECIDIVISM ASPECT OF JUST REGULAR
COURT SYSTEMS.
Text beneath the elderly woman reads, “Marlene Pierre. Elder, Fort William First Nation.”
[Upbeat music plays]
Marlene says, MY SPIRIT NAME IS...
AND MY OTHER NAME IS MARLENE PIERRE.
I'M WITH THE THUNDER BIRD CLAN.
Marlene sits across from Charnel.
Marlene explains, WE DON'T SEE
JUSTICE DESCRIBED AS CONFINEMENT.
IT'S MORE TO PUT THE PERSON IN
THE POSITION WHERE THEY CAN
RECOVER FROM THEIR WRONG, AND
WHATEVER THAT REMEDY MIGHT
BE, THAT'S DETERMINED BY
THE PEOPLE.
WE DIDN'T HAVE JAILS.
WE DIDN'T NEED JAILS.
WE LOSE ALL OUR TRADITIONS
IN SOME WAY IN THE CIRCLE.
The red-haired woman sits beside Charnel by a grassy meadow.
[Birds chirp]
The red-haired woman says, IT'S REALLY
IMPORTANT THAT WE ARE LOOKING
AT WAYS TO ADDRESS THOSE SYSTEMS
SO THAT THEY ARE LESS DISCRIMINATORY
TOWARDS INDIGENOUS PEOPLE,
THAT DON'T SET INDIGENOUS PEOPLE
UP FOR HAVING TO BE IN CONFLICT
WITH THE LAW.
Text beneath the red-haired woman reads, “Michelle Solomon. Chief, Fort William First Nation.”
[Upbeat music plays]
Michelle says, I'M MICHELLE SOLOMAN.
CHIEF OF FORT WILLIAM FIRST NATION.
YOU CERTAINLY HAVE TO LOOK AT
ALL THE HISTORICAL THINGS THAT
HAVE HAPPENED THAT CONTRIBUTE
TO THE SITUATION THAT WE FIND
OURSELVES IN TODAY.
WORKING ON THOSE ISSUES, MANY
PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF THE ISSUES
THAT CONTRIBUTE TO THIS SUCH AS
A RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS, THE CHILD
WELFARE SYSTEM, THE SYSTEMIC
RACISM THAT EXISTS IN SOCIETY
AND IN INSTITUTIONS THAT
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE FACE
EVERY DAY.
THOSE ARE ALL CONTRIBUTING
FACTORS TO THE HIGH RATES
OF INCARCERATED INDIGENOUS
PEOPLE OF ALL OVER TURTLE ISLAND.
WHEN PEOPLE ARE REMOVED FROM
COMMUNITIES AND PUT INTO
INCARCERATED SYSTEMS, THAT DOES
NOT GIVE RESPONSIBILITY TO THE
PERSON WHO DONE THE HARM, THAT
TAKES AWAY THEIR RESPONSIBILITY
BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER
TO THE COMMUNITY.
Later, he curly-haired woman says,
WHEN WE ARE IN CIRCLE WE ARE
THERE TO SUPPORT EACH OTHER...
The curly haired woman stands by a quilt. Text beneath her reads, “Renee Pervais. Restorative Justice Coordinator and Facilitator Fort William First Nation.”
[Upbeat music plays]
Renee says, MY NAME IS RENEE PERVAIS.
I'M FROM FORT WILLIAM FIRST NATION.
I’VE LIVED HERE ALL MY LIFE.
I AM THE RESTORATIVE JUSTICE
COORDINATOR/FACILITATOR.
Renee sits across from Nam.
Renee says, WHEN WE WOULD A RESTORATIVE
JUSTICE CIRCLE WE ALWAYS HAVE
AN ELDER IN THE CIRCLE AND THE
ELDER CO-FACILITATES WITH MYSELF.
THEN WE HAVE THE INDIVIDUAL THAT
HAS DONE WRONG AND HOPEFULLY WE
WOULD HAVE THE VICTIM, IF THERE
IS A VICTIM, ALSO PARTICIPATE IN
THE CIRCLE.
THEY EXPLAIN WHAT WAS GOING
ON AT THE TIME IN THEIR LIFE,
HOW THEY FELT, WHAT -- HOW THEY
FEEL NOW ABOUT EVERYTHING, AND
WHAT THEY'D LIKE TO SEE HAPPEN.
EVERYONE IN THE CIRCLE GETS TO
TALK, EVERYONE IS EQUAL, NOBODY
IS ABOVE, NOBODY IS BELOW. WE'RE
THERE TO SUPPORT ONE ANOTHER.
WE COME OUT WITH SUGGESTIONS
FOR THE INDIVIDUALS SO IF AN
INDIVIDUAL SAYS THAT YOU KNOW
THERE IS AN ISSUE WITH
ADDICTIONS SOMEBODY IN THE
CIRCLE MIGHT RECOMMEND TO
GET AN ASSESSMENT.
SOMEBODY RIGHT RECOMMEND
TREATMENT, BUT WE HAVE TO COME
OUT OF THAT CIRCLE WITH A SOLID PLAN.
Text beneath Charnel reads, “Charnel Anderson. Northwestern Ontario Hubs Journalist.”
Charnel says, I'M WONDERING ABOUT
THE SORT OF IMPACTS YOU'VE SEEN
IN THE COMMUNITY YOU KNOW
BECAUSE OF THE RESTORATIVE
JUSTICE PRACTICE.
Michelle sits across from Charnel by the meadow.
Michelle says, AS WE CONTINUE TO HAVE
CIRCLES TO ADDRESS THESE ISSUES
THEN IT CREATES AN OPPORTUNITY
FOR US TO TALK ABOUT LARGER
ISSUES IN COMMUNITIES THAT ARE
BEYOND YOU KNOW, POTENTIAL
WRONGDOINGS OR THINGS LIKE THAT.
CRIMINAL MATTERS THAT HAPPEN IN
COMMUNITY AT THE END OF THE DAY
IT'S ABOUT RESTORING RELATIONSHIPS
MUCH IT'S RESTORING PEOPLE'S SAFETY.
Nam sits across from Renee.
Nam says, I THINK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE,
WE KIND OF HAVE A STORY IN OUR
MINDS ABOUT PEOPLE WHO COMMIT
CRIMES. ABOUT PEOPLE WHO HARM
OTHERS. MAYBE RESTORATIVE JUSTICE
IS DEMANDING FOR US TO MAYBE ASK
MORE QUESTIONS.
Renee says, FIND OUT PEOPLE'S
STORIES. BUILD PEOPLE BACK UP IN
INSTEAD OF TEARING THEM DOWN.
HELPING PEOPLE JUST FEEL
POSITIVE ABOUT THEIR LIFE.
Nam says, REHABILITATE PEOPLE, MAYBE.
Renee says, HOPEFULLY.
At another time, Nam stands outside with Celina.
Nam asks, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY
JUSTICE LOOKS LIKE?
[Birds chirp, gentle music plays]
Celina says, JUSTICE LOOKS LIKE
ACCOUNTABILITY, RECONCILIATION,
RESTORATION OF RELATIONSHIPS,
AND HEALING, I THINK HEALING IS
-- IT'S ON THE THE TOP OF THE PYRAMID.
EVERYTHING SHOULD BE LOOKING
TOWARDS, HOW CAN WE HELP THE
INDIVIDUAL FEEL?
THE VICTIM AND THE OFFENDER.
Thick forest surrounds a two-lane highway.
Nam narrates, HOW DO WE HEAL
THE SYSTEM FORWARDS POSITIVE
CHANGE FOR ALL?
WHAT IS THE BALANCE THAT ALLOW
US TO CIRCLE BACK AND HOPE?
[Soothing music plays]
Animated grey lines connect yellow, red, blue and purple dots. Blue text reads, “Join the conversation.” Black text beside the Instagram logo reads, “@TVOTheThread”
End credits roll:
“Host/Producer, Nam Kiwanuka.
Field Reporter/Producer: Jeyan Jeganathan.
Northwestern Ontario Hub Journalist: Charnel Anderson.
Series Producer: Christine Charles.
Event Producer: Carla Lucchetta.
Chase Producer: Erica Giancola.
Executive Producer: Stacey Dunseath, Laurie Few.
TVO Media Education Group.
Copyright The Ontario Educational Communications Authority twenty twenty-three.”
A middle-aged man with short black hair wears a grey and white checkered dress shirt. Sunlight reflects off a table in front of him.
[Gentle music plays]
The black-haired man says,
THE ONLY WAY TO BEAT THE
SYSTEM IS TO GET OUT AND
NEVER COME BACK.
A middle-aged woman wears a black blouse. Her dark brown hair is pulled away from her face in a ponytail.
The woman with the ponytail says,
YOU CAN'T REALLY PROCESS A
TRAUMA OR DO ANY SORT OF DEEPER
WORK UNTIL YOU'RE BASIC NEEDS
ARE MET.
A man in his sixties with buzzed grey hair wears black-framed glasses and a pale blue dress shirt.
The man with the buzz cut says,
WE DON'T DEAL WITH THE
UNDERLYING ISSUES THEN WE'RE
DELAYING THE PROBLEM.
A woman wears a black turtleneck. Her wavy white hair touches her shoulders. Behind her is a white building surrounded by lush greenery.
[Bird caws]
The white-haired woman says,
WE ARE NOT ABOUT PUNISHMENT.
WE ARE ABOUT TRYING TO RESTORE
A PERSON.
Animated purple, red, dark yellow and blue thread connects to dots. The thread turns into grey lines connecting yellow, blue, purple and red dots. Text reads, “The Thread with Nam Kiwannuka.” The word “the” is dark grey and underlined in blue. The word “thread” is blue. “With Nam Kiwanuka” is in light grey text. All words except the first letter in Nam Kiwanuka’s first and last name are in lowercase letters.
[Upbeat music plays]
People stand on a street corner by a traffic light.
[Background crowd chatter]
Nam says, ONTARIO IS RELATIVELY
SAFE BUT RECENT HEADLINES LED
TO CONCERNS BROUGHT ON BY
OFFENDERS OUT ON BAIL.
[Gentle music plays]
Headlines from online news sources read, “Violent Crime on Bail Up in Ontario, Stakeholders Agree System is Broken, But Not on How to Fix It,” “Ontario Looks to Strengthen Bail System Following Several Incidents of Violent Crime,” “Ontario Looks to Strengthen Bail System Following Several Incidents of Violent Crime,” “MANDEL: Random Acts of Violence Have Us on Edge,” “As Violence Increases on the TTC, Unease Grows Along with Calls for More Support,” “WARMINTON: How Many Innocent Victims Must Die in TTC Violence Before Alarm Bells Raised?,” “’Not Safe in My Own City’: Video Shows Attack by Stranger in Toronto as Judge Predicts He Will Reoffend.”
Nam says, BAIL REFORM AND PUBLIC
SAFETY WEAVE THROUGH THE
CONVERSATION FOR THIS MONTH'S
EPISODE OF THE THREAD.
Nam wears her long brown hair pulled back away from her face. She wears a navy blue blazers over a white and navy blue vertically-striped blouse. She wears black-framed eyeglasses. Text beneath Nam reads, “Nam Kiwanuka. @TVOTheThread”
[Serious music plays]
Nam says, WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT
THIS MONTH'S TOPIC AND WHAT POLLY
HAS SEEN WHEN IT COMES TO BAIL
REFORM AND WHETHER OR NOT
THERE IS AN INCREASE IN CRIME.
IT SEEMS AS IF EVERY WHERE YOU
TURN IF YOU'RE ON THE TRANSIT
OR IF YOU'RE JUST OUT AND ABOUT,
SOMETHING SEEMS TO BE OCCURRING
TO MAKE PEOPLE FEEL UNSAFE.
WHEN WE TALK ABOUT BAIL
REFORM LABOUR AND WHETHER OR
NOT CRIME IS ON THE RISE WHEN
DOES POLLY SEE?
A woman with long wavy blonde hair sits across from Nam. The woman wears a black short-sleeved shirt. Text beneath her reads, “Erin Kelly. CEO, Advanced Symbolics, Inc.”
Erin says, PEOPLE ARE AFRAID BECAUSE
CRIMES ARE BEING COMMITED
THAT THEY DIDN’T SEE BEFORE.
WHAT'S CAUSING ANGER IS PEOPLE
COMMITTING THE CRIMES HAVE
PREVIOUS CRIMINAL RECORDS AND
THEY ARE OUT ON BAIL OR ON
PAROLE AND REOFFENDING.
At a different location, the black-haired man says,
WHEN YOU HAVE THE INSIGHT AND
UNDERSTANDING GENERALLY YOU
WON'T REPEAT THAT BEHAVIOUR.
Text beneath the black-haired man reads, “Lee Chapelle. Canaidan Prison Consulting Inc.”
[Upbeat music plays]
Lee says, MY NAME IS LEE CHAPELLE AND
I AM THE PRESIDENT OF CANADIAN
PRISON CONSULTING INCORPORATED.
MY FIRST TEN YEARS OF PRISON
I WAS ONE OF THE – ‘I'M NOT
GOING TO CHANGE’ GUYS.
I DIDN'T SEE ANOTHER PLACE IN
THE WORLD FOR ME AT THAT POINT.
I DIDN'T SEE MUCH IN THE WAY OF
OPPORTUNITIES DOWN THE ROAD
FOR A GUY WHO’D BEEN IN ON OUT
OF PRISON, CAME FROM CHILD
WELFARE, HAD A DRUG HABIT.
IN MY TWENTIES –COCAINE--AND
I REALLY DIDN’T SEE A WAY,
A PATH FORWARD AND I DIDN'T
HAVE THE SELF VALUE OR
SELF-BELIEF. I WAS ALREADY AT A
POINT WHERE I HAD STARTED TO
FEEL LIKE I WAS LOSING MY
SANITY BECAUSE I HAD ALREADY
SERVED PROBABLY FOURTEEN,
FIFTEEN YEARS AT THAT POINT.
I HAD BEEN OUT FOR A WHILE.
I HAD CAME BACK INTO THE SYSTEM,
AND IT WASN'T LIKE AN OLD SLIPPER
LIKE THE WAY IT USED TO BE WHERE
YOU COULD SLIP IN AND ADJUST.
I HAD A REALLY HARD TIME AND
I LOOKED AT MYSELF AND SAID OKAY
IS THERE WHERE I'M GOING TO BE
FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE?
Nam says, IT'S WILD AT THIRTY
YOU'D BEEN INSIDE FOR THIRTEEN,
FOURTEEN YEARS.
Lee says, YEAH, I HAD HIT A POINT
WHERE WHAT I HAVE COINED ‘DIRTY
KNOWLEDGE’ OR ‘GUILTY KNOWLEDGE’
HAD STARTED TAKING A TOLL ON MY
MENTAL WELL BEING.
I WAS FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO BEGIN
MEETING WITH PSYCHOLOGIST ON
SITE.
THROUGH THAT SIX MONTHS OF MEETING
WITH HER, I HAD COMMITTED TO
STOPPING MARIJUANA AND BEING ALL
INVOLVED IN THE SUBCULTURE.
I COMMITTED TO TAKING
UNIVERSITY. I BEGAN TAKING
A COURSE FROM
MCMASTER CORRESPONDENCE.
AT THE END OF THE THAT SIX MONTH
PERIOD, WHICH I SIGNED UP FOR AS
A TRIAL I FELT MORE EMPOWERED
AND BETTER THAN I HAD IN MY
ENTIRE LIFE.
PREDOMINANTLY, I WORK WITH PEOPLE
FACING INCARCERATION FOR THE
FIRST TIME. FIRST TIME OFFENDERS.
I WORK WITH THE PERSON WHO IS
FACING INCARCERATION AND THEIR
FAMILIES TOWARDS PREPARING THEM
FOR WHAT LIES AHEAD.
BEYOND THAT I REALLY TAKE A
TOUGH APPROACH.
THAT IS CENTERED UPON OWNERSHIP.
ACCOUNTABILITY, INSIGHT AND REMORSE.
Nam says, I GET THE SENSE THAT THE
PEOPLE THAT YOU WORK WITH WHEN
THEY COME TO YOU AND THEY'RE
TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO
NAVIGATE THE PRISON SYSTEM…
Lee says, YUP.
Nam says, …THAT YOU WANT TO WORK
WITH PEOPLE WHO TAKE -- WHO
ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT IT IS THAT
THEY'VE DONE.
Lee says, I'M NOT A PAROLE BOARD.
I'M NOT A JUDGE.
I DON'T DO THE POWER TO GIVE A
LESSER SENTENCE BUT WHEN IT'S
THAT GENUINE, THERE'S SOMEONE
I CAN WORK WITH SO THEY DON'T
END UP BACK TO WHERE THEY
ARE RIGHT NOW.
WE THINK OF CORRECTIONS AS AN
ENTITY BUT IT'S REALLY BROKEN
INTO MANY DIFFERENT FRAGMENTS.
WE HAVE DECISION-MAKING IN THE
FEDERAL SYSTEM, YOU'VE GOT
NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS, YOU'VE
GOT REGIONAL HEADQUARTERS
IN EVERY REGION ACROSS CANADA.
YOU HAVE ADMINISTRATIONS OF
EVERY PRISON. WARDENS.
DEPUTY WARDEN AND GOING INTO
MANAGEMENT AND THEN YOU GET TO
FRONT LINE, AND MOST OF THESE
GROUPS, THERE IS NOT A GREAT
DEAL OF COHESION WITH.
AND THERE'S DIFFERENCES OF
OPINIONS SO YOU'VE GOT A
DECISION MAKER WHO’S ADAMENT
THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE, AND THEN
YOU'VE GOT SOMEBODY ON THE FRONT
LINE WHO GETS THE MEMO LOOKS AT
IT AND SAYS, ‘THEY'RE IN THEIR
GLASS TOWER. THEY HAVE NO IDEA
WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE HERE’ AND
THROWS IT IN THE GARBAGE.
IT IS WHERE YOU HAVE A BREAKDOWN
WITHIN THAT YOU DON'T OFTEN SEE
OR THE PUBLIC NOT AWARE OF.
Nam says, IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE
IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE CONCEPT
OF WHY PEOPLE ARE SENT TO PRISON,
IS WE WANT TO GIVE THEM AN
OPPORTUNITY TO REHABILITATE.
IDEALLY RIGHT, BUT IF THE PEOPLE
WHO ARE KIND OF IN CHARGE OF
THAT PROCESS WITHIN THE PRISONS
THEMSELVES, THE CORRECTIONAL
OFFICERS. IF THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN
REHABILITATION AND IF YOU'RE
INSIDE TRYING TO REHABILITATE,
IT SEEMS AS IF THOSE TWO THINGS
ARE CLASHING.
Lee says, YES, I WOULD AGREE.
NOW HAVING SAID THAT WHEN IT
COMES TO CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS,
TO DISTINGUISH THIS, THERE IS A
CARE CUSTODY CONTROL IS WHAT
IT'S CALLED FOR CORRECTIONS.
THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE
CARE CUSTODY AND CONTROL OF
CHARGES, THEIR INMATES,
SECURITY IS REALLY NOT PART
OF SOCIAL WORK. PART OF
PROGRAMMING. THEY ARE THERE
FOR SECURITY REASONS.
NOW THIS BECOMES A NUANCE,
REALLY CHALLENGED, BECAUSE YOU'VE
GOT THE DEMOGRAPHIC OF INMATES
THAT ARE SUBCULTURE. DEEPLY
ENTRENCHED IN SUBCULTURE.
I WAS ONE.
Nam asks, WHAT DO YOU MEAN
BY SUBCULTURE?
Lee says, SO DRUG TRADE.
GAMBLING. STILL ACTIVE SO THAT
ULTIMATELY IF THERE'S WAY
SOMEHOW THROUGH WHOEVER YOU'RE
IN WITH, AND YOU'RE HANGING OUT
WITH, TO MAKE ARRANGEMENTS
FOR SOMETHING TO STILL OCCUR
THAT'S CRIMINAL ON THE STREET.
THERE'S ACTIVE PEOPLE THAT ARE
NOT PREPARED AND VERY CLEAR --
THEY SAY ‘I DON'T WANT TO CHANGE.
I'M GOING OUT AND I'M STILL
GOING TO DO’ -- OR THEY MAY NOT
BE THAT OPEN BUT THAT’S WHERE
THEY’RE AT.
A sign by a leafy tree reads, “Ontario. Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services.”
[Hum of background traffic]
Nam narrates, WHETHER YOU'RE ON
THE INSIDE OR OUTSIDE, A CYCLE OF
CHANGE MAY BE NEEDED.
WHAT PATHS WOULD LEAD TO
POSITIVE TRANSFORMATION?
Text beneath the woman with the ponytail reads, “Carly Kalish. Executive Director of Victim Services.”
Carly says, OUR GOAL IS TO TRY TO MOVE
PEOPLE FROM VICTIM TO SURVIVOR.
[Upbeat music plays]
Carly says, I'M CARLY KALISH, THE
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF
VICTIM SERVICES TORONTO.
WE PHYSICALLY GO TO THE SCENE OF
THE CRIME WITH POLICE ALTHOUGH
WE ARE SEPARATE FROM
TORONTO POLICE.
WE SUPPORT THEM IN THE VICTIM
AND SURVIVOR CRISIS MANAGEMENT,
SO SURVIVORS OF ALL DIFFERENT
CRIME TYPES AND SUDDEN TRAGEDIES,
ONCE THEY ARE A VICTIM OR
SURVIVOR THEY HAVE TO ENGAGE
WITH ALL OF THESE BUREAUCRACIES
THAT CAN BE DIFFICULT. SO OUR JOB
IS TO WALK ALONGSIDE SURVIVORS
AND MAKE SURE WE HOLD THEIR HAND
AND MAKE SURE THEY ARE SUPPORTED
AND HAVE ALL OF THE SERVICES
THEY NEED AFTER THE WORST DAY
OF THEIR LIFE.
Nam says, CRIME IS RISING AND PEOPLE
DON'T FEEL SAFE.
FROM THE WORK THAT YOU DO, WHAT
TYPES OF CRIME ARE YOU NAVIGATING?
Carly says, THE SCARIEST THING THAT
WE ARE JUST SEEING A CRAZY INFLUX
OF, BESIDES LABOUR TRAFFICKING,
IS GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE AND
THIS PEAK STARTED DURING THE
PANDEMIC, RIGHT. WHEN YOU ARE
LITERALLY LOCKED N A HOUSE OR
AN APARTMENT OR A HOME WITH
YOUR ABUSER, AND SO THE MAJORITY
OF THE WORK THAT WE DO SO AROUND
SEVENTY PERCENT OF THE CLIENTS,
WE SUPPORT AROUND TWENTY
THOUSAND CLIENTS A YEAR.
SEVENTY PERCENT ARE SURVIVORS
OF GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE.
SO INTIMATE PARTNER VIOLENCE
BEING THE BIGGEST, SEXUAL ASSAULT,
HUMAN TRAFFICKING.
Nam says, AND THE WORK YOU DO
WITH VICTIMS, DO YOU GET A SENSE
VICTIMS FEEL AS IF THEY ARE
GETTING JUSTICE?
Carly replies, BECAUSE IT'S SO INDIVIDUAL.
SOME YES AND SOME NO. RIGHT.
LIKE OFTEN INTIMATE PARTNER
VIOLENCE SURVIVORS, IF THEY DO
DECIDE TO REPORT TO POLICE AND
SOME DO AND SOME DON'T, THEIR
ABUSER COMES OUT THE SAME DAY.
THEY GET BAIL AND THEY'RE OUT
THE SAME DAY AND SO IT'S JUST
REALLY TERRIFYING.
THAT'S A VERY SCARY FEELING TO KNOW
THAT THIS PERSON IS VERY CAPABLE
OF HARMING YOU OR KILLING YOU.
Nam says, AND THERE'S A LOT OF
CONVERSATION NOT JUST IN ONTARIO
BUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY REGARDING
BAIL REFORM, AND I CAN ONLY
IMAGINE IF YOU ARE A PERSON THAT
SURVIVED A CRIME AND THEN THE
PERSON WHO COMMITTED THAT CRIME
IS OUT ON BAIL.
Carly says, YEAH.
Nam says, AND WE'VE HEARD STORIES
OF PEOPLE BEING OUT ON BAIL,
RECOMMITTING CRIMES AGAINST
OTHER PEOPLE. WHAT ARE YOUR
THOUGHTS AROUND THAT?
Carly replies, WE WOULD HAVE
SURVIVORS WHO FEEL BOTH WAYS.
I WILL TELL YOU THAT MOST OF THE
SURVIVORS WE SUPPORT WOULD SAY
THAT THEY FEEL, THEY FEEL LIKE
THE CURRENT SYSTEM DOES NOT GO
FAR ENOUGH AND THEY ARE
SUPPORTIVE OF BAIL REFORM BUT
NOT ALL.
Nam asks, HOW DOUGH WE BEGIN TO DISSECT
WHAT IS HAPPENING AROUND PUBLIC
SAFETY, AND THE PERCEPTION OF
PUBLIC SAFETY IN THIS COUNTRY?
Carly replies, I MEAN I THINK THE FIRST
THING WE CAN DO IS HOUSE PEOPLE.
LIKE THAT'S HIERARCHY OF NEEDS.
YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ELSE UNTIL
YOUR BASIC NEEDS ARE MET.
SO MANY PEOPLE ARE COMMITTING
CRIMES BECAUSE THE BASIC NEEDS
ARE NOT BEING MET AND THEY ARE
TRYING TO SURVIVE.
AND I THINK STEP ONE IN SOLVING
ANY OF THIS IS HOUSING PEOPLE.
Nam asks, DO YOU THINK THE JUSTICE
SYSTEM COULD DO A BETTER JOB OF
PROTECTING VICTIMS?
Carly replies, THERE'S DEFINITELY WORK
TO BE DONE IN ORDER TO REALLY LISTEN
TO VICTIMS AND TO REALLY UNDERSTAND
THE SEVERITY OF THEIR FEAR.
SO MANY OF OUR SURVIVORS REPORT
TO US BUT DON'T REPORT TO POLICE
SO THEY ARE NOT ACTUALLY
ENTERING THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE
SYSTEM AND I THINK THAT'S ALSO
DISSECT.
Nam asks, CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?
Carly says, SOME OF THEM ESPECIALLY
RACIALIZED, INDIGENOUS, BLACK
CLIENTS FEEL UNSAFE ACCESSING
THE SUPPORT OF THE CRIMINAL
JUSTICE SYSTEM, AND YOU KNOW
THROUGH OUR PARTNERSHIP
WITH TPS.
Nam says, TORONTO POLICE.
Carly syas, THE TORONTO POLICE
SERVICE. WE HAVE TWO CRISIS LINES.
ONE IS SPECIFIC TO THE POLICE.
THEY CAN CALL US TO GO TO THE
SCENE OF THE CRIME, AND WE HAVE
A CRISIS LINE AVAILABLE TO THE
COMMUNITY MUCH TO THE PUBLIC
TO CALL US SHOULD THEY NOT WANT
POLICE INTERVENTION BUT FEEL
LIKE THEY'RE A SURVIVOR OR
VICTIM OF CRIME AND CRISIS.
Nam asks, WHAT DO YOU WANT THE PUBLIC
TO KNOW ABOUT VICTIMS AND HOW WE
SHOULD, I DON'T KNOW, I THINK WE
SHOULD CONSIDER WHEN SOMEONE
HAS BEEN VICTIMIZED.
Carly says, IT'S SO COMPLICATED AND
NUANCED BECAUSE OFTEN SURVIVORS
AND VICTIMS ARE ALSO PERPETRATORS.
LIKE IT CAN BECOME MURKY THAT
IT'S NOT JUST YOU KNOW TWO
CATEGORIES OF PEOPLE.
IT’S HARD FOR US TO ADVOCATE FOR ONE
SPECIFIC DIRECTION TO CHANGE THE
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM FOR
EXAMPLE BECAUSE THAT'S NOT HOW
ALL THE SURVIVORS FEEL.
Nam walks to the Court House in Toronto and looks at the building. Writing carved into the side of the building reads, “Court House. Three sixty-one University.”
[Solemn music plays]
Nam narrates, THE EXPERIENCE OF VICTIMS
SURVIVORS AND OFFENDERS IS COMPLEX.
NUANCED AND UNIQUE TO EACH SITUATION.
THOUGH A CONSTANT AMONG THEM IS
A HOPE THAT THE SYSTEM WORKS
FOR THEM.
Nam sits across from Erin.
Nam asks, WHAT DOES POLLY SEE WHEN IT
COMES TO THE CONVERSATION AROUND
BAIL REFORM?
Erin replies, TWO PROBLEMS.
FIRST, ARE WE LETTING PEOPLE OUT
WHEN THEY ARE HEALTHY ENOUGH
TO BE LET OUT. AND ARE WE PUTTING
THEM IN A SITUATION ONCE THEY ARE
OUT WHERE THEY CAN BE SUCCESSFUL?
IS IT THAT WE ARE NOT DOING A
GOOD JOB OF HELPING PEOPLE AND
REFORMING THEM?
OR ARE WE NOT DOING A GOOD
JOB OF HEY GREAT YOU'RE PRETTY
STABLE NOW WE WILL PUT YOU IN A
WORLD YOU HAVEN'T BEEN IN FOR
MANY YEARS AND YOU HAVE TO GET
A JOB AND FEED YOURSELF.
WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHERE
THE SYSTEM IS FALLING DOWN.
Elsewhere, the man with the buzz cut says,
IF WE DON'T DEAL WITH THE
UNDERLYING ISSUES THEN WE ARE
DELAYING THE PROBLEM.
Jeyan Jeganathan walks down a shadowy staircase.
Nam narrates, JEYAN MET UP WITH
PROFESSOR KENT ROACH TO GET
A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF
THE BAIL AND COURT SYSTEM.
Text by the man with the buzz cut reads, “Kent Roach. Law Professor, University of Toronto.”
[Upbeat music plays]
Professor Roach says, I'M KENT ROACH,
A PROFESSOR OF CRIMINAL LAW AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.
Jeyan wears a black and brown checkered shirt. His black hair, beard and moustache are trimmed short. Text beneath Jeyan reads, “Jeyan Jeganathan.” Text beside the Instagram icon reads, “Jeyanjeganathan”
Jeyan says, TAKE US A STEP BACK.
WHAT EXACTLY IS BAIL?
FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS NOT GONE
THROUGHOUT COURT SYSTEM WHAT
DOES THAT ACTUALLY MEAN?
Professor Roach says, OKAY, SO THE
CRIMINAL CODE IS SET UP THAT
WHEN A POLICE OFFICER ARRESTS
SOMEONE OR GIVES SOMEONE A
SUMMONS, THERE'S DEFAULT THAT
THEY SHOULD BE RELEASED.
SO THAT THEY NEVER EVEN GET
TO THE ISSUE OF BAIL.
BUT IF THE POLICE OFFICER THINKS
THAT THE PERSON IS NOT GOING TO
SHOW UP OR IF THEY'RE REQUESTING
TO GO ON AND COMMIT ANOTHER
CRIME THEY CAN DETAIN THAT PERSON.
AND WITHIN TWENTY-FOUR HOURS,
THEY HAVE A RIGHT, UNDER THE CHARTER
TO GO IN FRONT OF A JUDGE OR A JUSTICE
OF THE PEACE TO DETERMINE WHETHER
THEY WILL BE GRANTED BAIL.
THE JUSTICE OF THE PEACE HAS
TO DECIDE ‘CAN I ENSURE THAT THIS
PERSON WILL COME BACK TO COURT,
WILL NOT COMMIT OTHER OFFENCES’,
AND ‘CAN I MAINTAIN CONFIDENCE IN
THE ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BY
EITHER RELEASING THIS PERSON,
USUALLY ON CONDITIONS, OR HAVING
THEM SERVE -- DENYING THEM BAIL’.
IF THEY'RE DENIED BAIL, THEY GO
TO JAIL.
Jeyan asks, WHAT WOULD A CRIME
THAT MAYBE PERHAPS SOMEONE
WOULD BE CONSIDERED, YOU KNOW,
A CANDIDATE FOR BAIL?
WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE?
Professor Roach says, PRETTY STANDARD
BAIL CONDITION WOULD BE IN THE ONLY
THAT YOU HAVE TO KEEP THE PEACE,
AND BE OF GOOD BEHAVIOUR, BUT
THAT YOU NOT CONTACT THE VICTIM,
AND PERHAPS THAT YOU NOT CONTACT
THE WITNESS.
SO THOSE ARE SOME OF THE BAIL
CONDITIONS THAT CAN BE PLACED
ON TO TRY TO PROTECT PUBLIC SAFETY.
THERE'S ALSO THE IDEA THAT YOU
SHOULD HAVE PROBATION OFFICERS
WHO CAN ENFORCE BAIL SO IT MAY
BE A CONDITION OF BAIL THAT YOU
NEED WITH THIS PERSON EVERY
WEEK, AND THAT PERSON COULD
THEN, YOU KNOW IF HE OR SHE
SUSPECTS THAT YOU BREACHED BAIL,
COULD THEN SEND THAT BACK TO
THE POLICE.
Jeyan says, THE LAST FEW MONTHS,
YOU KNOW, WE'VE SEEN IT ON EVERY
HEADLINE. IT JUST FEELS LIKE
EVERYONE HAS BEEN ON EDGE.
AND I'M HOPING, CAN YOU DESCRIBE,
WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A
RELATIONSHIP BUT PEOPLE ARE
MAKING SOME CONNECTION BETWEEN
THE BAIL PROCESS AND THE JUSTICE
SYSTEM AND MAYBE WHAT CAN BE
DONE, VERSUS WHAT WE ARE SEEING
PLAY OUT IN SOCIETY.
Professor Roach says, WHAT
WE'RE SEEING COMING OUT
OF COVID IS I MEAN -- THINK
ABOUT TORONTO.
THINK ABOUT HOW UNAFFORDABLE
HOUSING IS IN TORONTO.
SO WE ARE SEEING BOTH MANY MORE
VISIBLE PEOPLE LIVING IN TTC,
OTHER PUBLIC SPACES AND WE'RE
ALSO SEEING THESE WELL-PUBLICIZED
HORRIFIC ACTS OF VIOLENCE.
I THINK IT'S JUST KIND OF A
COMBINATION OF UNEASE FRANKLY
THAT WE ALL HAVE IN SEEING
PEOPLE WITH DRUG ADDICTIONS,
PEOPLE WHO ARE UNHOUSED, PEOPLE
WHO ARE IN VARIOUS FORMS OF
DISTRESS. AND I THINK THAT
IN SOME WAYS IT'S EASIER TO LOOK
TO SOLUTIONS IN THE CRIMINAL
JUSTICE SYSTEM BECAUSE YOU CAN
PASS A LAW AND SAY GOOD, WE'VE
DEALT WITH IT.
AND THE OTHER SORT OF SOLUTIONS
ARE HARDER.
IT'S HARDER TO WORK ON HOUSING.
IT'S HARDER TO WORK ON MENTAL
HEALTH, AND YOU KNOW SO AGAIN,
I'M NOT SAYING THAT BAIL IS NOT
PART OF THE REFORM, THE WHOLE
JUSTICE SYSTEM AND THE WHOLE
COMMUNITY SAFETY SYSTEM
OPERATING IN SILOS BUT I DON'T
THINK IT'S NECESSARILY IN THE
BEST INTERESTS THAT THE
POLICING BUDGET IS IN ONE SILO.
THE HOUSING BUDGET IS IN
ANOTHER, THE MENTAL HEALTH
IS IN ANOTHER SILO.
Jeyan asks, OVERALL, THE BAIL
PROCESS, IS IT ONE THAT YOU THINK
IS FAIR?
Professor Roach says, AS A PERSON
TRAINED IN THE PRESUMPTION OF
INNOCENCE, THE IDEA OF PUTTING
PEOPLE IN JAIL BEFORE THEY HAVE
BEEN FOUND GUILTY IS HARD TO JUSTIFY.
THERE ARE NO SIMPLE SOLUTIONS.
WE ALL WANT TO BE SAFE.
WE ALL WANT PEOPLE I THINK TO
GET THE HELP THAT THEY NEED TO
DEAL WITH ADDICTIONS AND OTHER
CAUSES OF CRIME.
SOMETIMES DENIAL OF BAIL IS
GOING TO BE NECESSARY, BUT
SOMETIMES IT CAN HAVE A NEGATIVE
EFFECT, BOTH ON THE SENTENCE, BUT
ALSO EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY AND
THE PERSON'S LIFE.
Elsewhere, Nam stands in front of the Toronto sculpture, ‘Equal Before the Law.’ The sculpture features a bronze lion and a bronze lamb staring at each other across a platform. Nam looks at the quote on the side of the base of the sculpture. The quote from the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms reads, “Every individual is equal before and under the law.”
[Gentle music plays]
Nam narrates, WHAT IS THE BALANCE
BETWEEN WHAT IS FAIR AND WHAT
WILL KEEP THE PUBLIC SAFE?
IS THE SYSTEM NEED ARE REPAIR?
DOES INCARCERATION LEAD
TO REHABILITATION?
Nam sits across from Erin.
[Music continues]
Nam asks, WHAT DOES POLLY SAY
WHEN IT COMES TO THE CONVERSATION
AROUND REHABILITATION.
Erin says, AMONG THE GENERAL
POPULATION PEOPLE ARE VERY
SUPPORTIVE OF REHABILITATION.
NOW THE GENERAL POPULATION DOES
BELIEVE THOUGH THAT THERE'S SOME
PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE WORTHY OR
MORE LIKELY TO BE REHABILITATED
THAN OTHERS, SO THERE'S A LOT OF
BELIEF AND SYMPATHY THAT IF
YOU CAME FROM A
DISADVANTAGED BACKGROUND,
VERY POOR BACKGROUND OR BIPOC
AND YOU JUST HAD A ROUGH START
IN LIFE OR THE CAUSE THAT YOU
WERE ON DRUGS BUT NOW ARE
CLEAN YOU ARE PROBABLY A GOOD
CANDIDATE FOR REHABILITATION
THERE'S BELIEF THAT IF YOU STALK
AND KILL CHILDREN YOU ARE NOT
EITHER A CANDIDATE FOR
REHABILITATION OR EVEN WORTHY.
PEOPLE SAY IF THE SYSTEM IS
ABOUT REASONABLE TASTING WHY
DO WE SENTENCE PEOPLE TO YEARS?
WHY DO WE SAY TWENTY-FIVE
YEARS YOU'RE OUT OR TEN YEARS
YOU'RE OUT?
SHOULDN'T IT BE WHEN YOU'RE
REFORMED YOU CAN OUT?
AND IT'S UP TO YOU TO PROVE.
IT'S NOT ABOUT REFORM MUCH
IT'S STILL ABOUT TIME.
Nam says, BASICALLY THAT IF YOU
DID THE CRIME, YOU NEED TO DO
THE TIME.
Erin says, YES.
I ACTUALLY SAW A BIG
CONVERSATION AND THE TOPIC EVER
REHABILITATION SAYING PEOPLE
SUPPORT – ‘I SUPPORT
REHABILITATION FOR ONE MAIN
REASON BECAUSE IF WE LEARN HOW
TO REHABILITATE MAYBE WE CAN
LEARN HOW TO PREVENT.’
Later, Nam sits in the passenger side of a car.
[Motor hums]
A woman with long straight blonde hair walks beside Nam on a paved path. The woman wears blue jeans and a grey sweater over a white shirt.
Nam narrates, WHAT IS THE DIRECTION
TOWARDS A BETTER SYSTEM?
WE HEAD TO THUNDER BAY, JOINED
BY CHARNEL ANDERSON AND MEET
COMMUNITY MEMBERS OF THE
FORT WILLIAM FIRST NATION
TO LEARN MORE.
[Serious music plays]
An elderly woman wears a bucket hat with a beige jacket and black sweater. She wears dark-framed eyeglasses.
The elderly woman says, OUR WHOLE
PURPOSE EVER THE RESTORATION
PROGRAMME IS TO KEEP PEOPLE
OUT OF JAIL.
A woman with black curly hair sits across from Nam. She wears a black jacket over a blue shirt.
The curly-haired woman says,
YOU NEED IT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY
FOR YOUR ACTIONS OF WHAT
YOU'VE -- WHAT YOU'VE DONE.
A woman with long curly red hair sits beside Charnel. The red-haired woman wears a white blazer over a dark pink blouse.
[Birds chirp]
The red-haired woman says, RESTORATIVE
JUSTICE, CERTAINLY THAT IS ONE, ONE
WAY TO MINIMIZE OR TO ALLEVIATE
SOME OF THE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE
WHO ARE FINDING THEMSELVES IN
INCARCERATED SITUATIONS.
The white-haired woman says,
THE SOONER WE REALIZE THAT
IT SHOULD BE THE MAIN WAY TO
ASSIST INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN
THE JUSTICE SYSTEM, THE BETTER
OFF WE'LL ALL BE.
Text beneath the white-haired woman reads, “Celina Reitberger. Former Nishnawbe Aski Legal Services executive director and Former Chair of Thunder Bay Police Services Board.
[Upbeat music plays]
[Celina speaks in an indigenous language]
Celina says, I'M FROM FORT
WILLIAM FIRST NATION.
MY SPIRIT NAME IS ‘WHIRLWIND
WOMAN’ AND I'M EAGLE CLAN
AND MY COMMON NAME IS
CELINA REITBERGER.
Nam asks, HOW DOES RESTORATIVE
JUSTICE SEEK TO ADDRESS CRIME?
Celina says, WHEN WE STARTED UP
OUR PROGRAMME WE CALLED IT
RESTORATIVE JUSTICE BECAUSE IT
IS RESTORING THE WAY THINGS USED
TO BE IN THE INDIGENOUS CULTURE,
AND IT ALSO RESTORES RELATIONSHIPS.
SO IT ADDRESSES CRIME IN A VERY
UNIQUE MANNER IN THAT WE ARE
TRYING TO ADDRESS HEALING, SO
IT'S ABOUT TRYING TO RESTORE
RELATIONSHIPS, AND ALSO HEAL THE
PERSON WHO HAD HAS COMMITTED
THE WRONG BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT
THERE ARE UNDERLYING REASONS WHY
THIS HAPPENED.
IT'S NOT JUST WILLFULNESS.
Nam asks, WHY IS HEALING I GUESS
AT THE CENTRE OF RESTORATIVE JUSTICE.
Celina says, BECAUSE WE KNOW IF YOU
DEAL WITH THE UNDERLYING ISSUES
AND YOU BECOME A WELL PERSON,
WE ARE NOT GOING TO SEE YOU IN
THE JUSTICE SYSTEM ANY MORE.
Nam asks, WHY RESTORATIVE JUSTICE.
WHY NOT JAIL OR PRISON?
[Bird caws]
Celina says, FIRST OF ALL, YOU
DON'T WANT TO BE AN INDIGENOUS
PERSON IN JAIL. NOT A GOOD PLACE.
WE ARE NOT ABOUT PUNISHMENT.
WE ARE ABOUT TRYING TO RESTORE
A PERSON. SO IF YOU PUT SOMEONE
IN JAIL, WHAT DID THEY DO IN THERE?
THEY LEARN HOW TO BE A BETTER
CRIMINAL BUT WHEN AT THE GET OUT
THEY DON'T HAVE THE TOOLS TO
LEAD A GOOD LIFE.
The elderly woman says, I HAVE
FAMILY AND FRIENDS THAT HAVE
DIED IN JAILS AND WHO HAVE GONE
BACK AND FORTH. YOU KNOW, THE
RECIDIVISM ASPECT OF JUST REGULAR
COURT SYSTEMS.
Text beneath the elderly woman reads, “Marlene Pierre. Elder, Fort William First Nation.”
[Upbeat music plays]
Marlene says, MY SPIRIT NAME IS...
AND MY OTHER NAME IS MARLENE PIERRE.
I'M WITH THE THUNDER BIRD CLAN.
Marlene sits across from Charnel.
Marlene explains, WE DON'T SEE
JUSTICE DESCRIBED AS CONFINEMENT.
IT'S MORE TO PUT THE PERSON IN
THE POSITION WHERE THEY CAN
RECOVER FROM THEIR WRONG, AND
WHATEVER THAT REMEDY MIGHT
BE, THAT'S DETERMINED BY
THE PEOPLE.
WE DIDN'T HAVE JAILS.
WE DIDN'T NEED JAILS.
WE LOSE ALL OUR TRADITIONS
IN SOME WAY IN THE CIRCLE.
The red-haired woman sits beside Charnel by a grassy meadow.
[Birds chirp]
The red-haired woman says, IT'S REALLY
IMPORTANT THAT WE ARE LOOKING
AT WAYS TO ADDRESS THOSE SYSTEMS
SO THAT THEY ARE LESS DISCRIMINATORY
TOWARDS INDIGENOUS PEOPLE,
THAT DON'T SET INDIGENOUS PEOPLE
UP FOR HAVING TO BE IN CONFLICT
WITH THE LAW.
Text beneath the red-haired woman reads, “Michelle Solomon. Chief, Fort William First Nation.”
[Upbeat music plays]
Michelle says, I'M MICHELLE SOLOMAN.
CHIEF OF FORT WILLIAM FIRST NATION.
YOU CERTAINLY HAVE TO LOOK AT
ALL THE HISTORICAL THINGS THAT
HAVE HAPPENED THAT CONTRIBUTE
TO THE SITUATION THAT WE FIND
OURSELVES IN TODAY.
WORKING ON THOSE ISSUES, MANY
PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF THE ISSUES
THAT CONTRIBUTE TO THIS SUCH AS
A RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS, THE CHILD
WELFARE SYSTEM, THE SYSTEMIC
RACISM THAT EXISTS IN SOCIETY
AND IN INSTITUTIONS THAT
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE FACE
EVERY DAY.
THOSE ARE ALL CONTRIBUTING
FACTORS TO THE HIGH RATES
OF INCARCERATED INDIGENOUS
PEOPLE OF ALL OVER TURTLE ISLAND.
WHEN PEOPLE ARE REMOVED FROM
COMMUNITIES AND PUT INTO
INCARCERATED SYSTEMS, THAT DOES
NOT GIVE RESPONSIBILITY TO THE
PERSON WHO DONE THE HARM, THAT
TAKES AWAY THEIR RESPONSIBILITY
BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER
TO THE COMMUNITY.
Later, he curly-haired woman says,
WHEN WE ARE IN CIRCLE WE ARE
THERE TO SUPPORT EACH OTHER...
The curly haired woman stands by a quilt. Text beneath her reads, “Renee Pervais. Restorative Justice Coordinator and Facilitator Fort William First Nation.”
[Upbeat music plays]
Renee says, MY NAME IS RENEE PERVAIS.
I'M FROM FORT WILLIAM FIRST NATION.
I’VE LIVED HERE ALL MY LIFE.
I AM THE RESTORATIVE JUSTICE
COORDINATOR/FACILITATOR.
Renee sits across from Nam.
Renee says, WHEN WE WOULD A RESTORATIVE
JUSTICE CIRCLE WE ALWAYS HAVE
AN ELDER IN THE CIRCLE AND THE
ELDER CO-FACILITATES WITH MYSELF.
THEN WE HAVE THE INDIVIDUAL THAT
HAS DONE WRONG AND HOPEFULLY WE
WOULD HAVE THE VICTIM, IF THERE
IS A VICTIM, ALSO PARTICIPATE IN
THE CIRCLE.
THEY EXPLAIN WHAT WAS GOING
ON AT THE TIME IN THEIR LIFE,
HOW THEY FELT, WHAT -- HOW THEY
FEEL NOW ABOUT EVERYTHING, AND
WHAT THEY'D LIKE TO SEE HAPPEN.
EVERYONE IN THE CIRCLE GETS TO
TALK, EVERYONE IS EQUAL, NOBODY
IS ABOVE, NOBODY IS BELOW. WE'RE
THERE TO SUPPORT ONE ANOTHER.
WE COME OUT WITH SUGGESTIONS
FOR THE INDIVIDUALS SO IF AN
INDIVIDUAL SAYS THAT YOU KNOW
THERE IS AN ISSUE WITH
ADDICTIONS SOMEBODY IN THE
CIRCLE MIGHT RECOMMEND TO
GET AN ASSESSMENT.
SOMEBODY RIGHT RECOMMEND
TREATMENT, BUT WE HAVE TO COME
OUT OF THAT CIRCLE WITH A SOLID PLAN.
Text beneath Charnel reads, “Charnel Anderson. Northwestern Ontario Hubs Journalist.”
Charnel says, I'M WONDERING ABOUT
THE SORT OF IMPACTS YOU'VE SEEN
IN THE COMMUNITY YOU KNOW
BECAUSE OF THE RESTORATIVE
JUSTICE PRACTICE.
Michelle sits across from Charnel by the meadow.
Michelle says, AS WE CONTINUE TO HAVE
CIRCLES TO ADDRESS THESE ISSUES
THEN IT CREATES AN OPPORTUNITY
FOR US TO TALK ABOUT LARGER
ISSUES IN COMMUNITIES THAT ARE
BEYOND YOU KNOW, POTENTIAL
WRONGDOINGS OR THINGS LIKE THAT.
CRIMINAL MATTERS THAT HAPPEN IN
COMMUNITY AT THE END OF THE DAY
IT'S ABOUT RESTORING RELATIONSHIPS
MUCH IT'S RESTORING PEOPLE'S SAFETY.
Nam sits across from Renee.
Nam says, I THINK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE,
WE KIND OF HAVE A STORY IN OUR
MINDS ABOUT PEOPLE WHO COMMIT
CRIMES. ABOUT PEOPLE WHO HARM
OTHERS. MAYBE RESTORATIVE JUSTICE
IS DEMANDING FOR US TO MAYBE ASK
MORE QUESTIONS.
Renee says, FIND OUT PEOPLE'S
STORIES. BUILD PEOPLE BACK UP IN
INSTEAD OF TEARING THEM DOWN.
HELPING PEOPLE JUST FEEL
POSITIVE ABOUT THEIR LIFE.
Nam says, REHABILITATE PEOPLE, MAYBE.
Renee says, HOPEFULLY.
At another time, Nam stands outside with Celina.
Nam asks, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY
JUSTICE LOOKS LIKE?
[Birds chirp, gentle music plays]
Celina says, JUSTICE LOOKS LIKE
ACCOUNTABILITY, RECONCILIATION,
RESTORATION OF RELATIONSHIPS,
AND HEALING, I THINK HEALING IS
-- IT'S ON THE THE TOP OF THE PYRAMID.
EVERYTHING SHOULD BE LOOKING
TOWARDS, HOW CAN WE HELP THE
INDIVIDUAL FEEL?
THE VICTIM AND THE OFFENDER.
Thick forest surrounds a two-lane highway.
Nam narrates, HOW DO WE HEAL
THE SYSTEM FORWARDS POSITIVE
CHANGE FOR ALL?
WHAT IS THE BALANCE THAT ALLOW
US TO CIRCLE BACK AND HOPE?
[Soothing music plays]
Animated grey lines connect yellow, red, blue and purple dots. Blue text reads, “Join the conversation.” Black text beside the Instagram logo reads, “@TVOTheThread”
End credits roll:
“Host/Producer, Nam Kiwanuka.
Field Reporter/Producer: Jeyan Jeganathan.
Northwestern Ontario Hub Journalist: Charnel Anderson.
Series Producer: Christine Charles.
Event Producer: Carla Lucchetta.
Chase Producer: Erica Giancola.
Executive Producer: Stacey Dunseath, Laurie Few.
TVO Media Education Group.
Copyright The Ontario Educational Communications Authority twenty twenty-three.”
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